This is the story of a guy who saw a good friend of his post about clients on Twitter. The messages hit a chord with him, but didn’t think his answer (or subsequent “advice”) would fit within 140 characters. We now commence with the ranting.
My good friend Croftie posted this this morning (links to individual tweets are in the footnotes):
Ever had a client take your design, “rework it” and send it back to you so you can do the rest of the site their way? How did you handle it?1 I don’t want to be someone’s pixel prostitute. If they want to push my pixels around, they can do it themselves, after I’m done.2 My job is to give them the best possible solution I can come up with. They don’t have to use it if they don’t want to.3 It’s work for hire. They hire us, we do our best, we give it to them. PERIOD. If they want to redesign it AFTER that, fine.4
To answer the question simply. Yes. I have experienced that. We could leave the entry at that, but that wouldn’t be me. ;)
Oh look, there’s blood. :O
To be honest, I was naive little bastard who didn’t know how to say stop. I took beatings from clients more often than the nearest high school’s stereotypical wimp. Granted, Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had some awesome clients, but as they always say, it’s the little things that get to you. So I can empathize with Jeff. I have his back even because I know what this feels like. What I have learned through all of this, is that this business requires a backbone. I’ve learned that the hard way, obviously, but I had people tell me that this wasn’t the way to do things.
I’ve had clients that have taken my designs, opened up their copy of Photoshop, “tweaked” said designs and send them back to me. Was I offended? Yeah, I was. Did I do anything about it? No. It didn’t feel right to yell at a client for opening up Photoshop. It didn’t feel right to yell at the person paying me. I had no backbone, I didn’t take any recourse, and I was beating myself over the head with a mythological hammer created by both.
Oh, and then there’s Flock. Matt and I still mourn that loss.
I know I’ve said this before somewhere—maybe here—but just because you are paid to do your job, it does not mean you are a slave to, or in Jeff’s case, a pixel prostitute for the client.
But wait, who are you to give any advice on the matter?
But what’s this? Advice coming from a guy who can’t even make ends meet some months? Yes, laugh, get it out. But this guy is looking out for yours and his own sanity. I would rather take one client a year and have awesome relationship with them where I can have free reign over the creative, then suffer financially; instead of taking clients and subsequently risk getting abused just to make ends meet. (If you see “the man” as a client, that’s pretty much the reason Facebook and Automattic failed for me—restriction.)
That’s not the way I roll and I’m happier for it. I get the phone calls and the letters. This is my life. Jen and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
So here’s the moral of the story.
What Jeff wrote today really struck a chord with me, and I didn’t feel my answer could be a simple “yes,” nor would it fit in 140 characters. But here’s the moral of the story, and I’ll prefix with “if you’re comfortable with it.”
A client comes to you, looking for your expertise. They pay you for that expertise. Whether or not you stand up to them is your prerogative, but you are the expert. Remember that.
In a perfect world, we’d all spew our collective creative genius on the web and consequently the web would be a much more beautiful place. It isn’t, but it shouldn’t mean that we can’t fight for it.
If you’re comfortable doing so, when you see the red flags go off, do something about it. Pull the client aside and give them the what for and if that doesn’t work, fire them. Do not put your own sanity and self-confidence at risk if you don’t have to. Give your expertise to the clients who respect you, the clients who deserve your knowledge and experience.
Or… you could just spend your days making your own stuff. :)
Edit: Oh, one more thing.
I’m going to amend this post and say frankly that this is the opinion of one guy who isn’t fit to be part of an agency, design firm or anything of the sort. This post is the very reason I closed Revyver off to design requests and is something I’ll detail later when I finally get to writing the “State of Revyver” post in the next few days. I just don’t have the personality nor the patience, so I’m out of the game altogether.
If you’re looking for some good information on what you should do if you’re not going in my direction, Jeff Croft’s (#001), Keith Robinson’s (#013) and Sean Madden’s (#014) comments below are perfect examples of what should be done.
Thanks for the response, Veloso! Just for the record, it wasn’t actually me who had my design “reworked,” — it was another Blue Flavorite.
Just to clarify the situation a little bit: we had sent one comp to the client in order to get them to feedback, or sign off on, the general design direction. Following that, we would make comps for the other pages.
The client responded to the initial comp by opening it up in Photoshop, making a bunch of changes, sending it back, and telling us to “go ahead and make the rest of the pages based on this.” We didn’t really care for the changes — there were several interaction design issues with them — but that’s really beside the point.
The problems with this are two-fold:
So how did we handle it? We feel we had a professional responsibility to the client to point out possible pitfalls in the design direction they were taking — so we did so. We told them several things that weren’t working so well in their design. Then, we told them there were two choices: they could provide us with detailed feedback of the problems they saw with our original comp, and we’d go from there, or we could simply end the engagement, and they were happy to use any of the work we did for them, or the design direction they sent us, in their implementation. We’ll see what they choose.
To me, it’s very important that the last thing I hand a client before the project ends is something I’m proud of. What they do with it after that is entirely up to them. But, I don’t want my name on any work I don’t think is good design. With the way we handled this, we will either stop the project now (and the final deliverable we will have given them was our original comp, which we were proud of), or they’ll let us solve the problems they saw (which, again, will result in something we’re proud of). If we had, instead, bent over and went with their design, we would have made more money, but we also would have ended with final deliverables that weren’t up to our standard of work.
We can’t have that.
I completely agree with doing something you’re proud of, and I’m hitting myself for not including that in the post somewhere. I know countless people that have said at one time or another, “eh, at least I finished, but I won’t put it in my portfolio.”
Ask yourself if it was really worth it in the end, and if it wasn’t, what can you do next time to prevent yourself from falling down the same hole?
Thanks for the clarification on a few of the elements. I knew that it wasn’t directly about you, but look at me being a doofus and writing it anyway. :P
I let my first two clients ever do exactly what you are describing. At the time my thought was hey they are paying me to do this so I guess they have the final say in the matter. Now when I look back it feels like they were saying my work was not good enough so they would lend me a hand to get me started. These clients are still clients to this day but we have a very different relationship. As Jeff said, you want to be proud of your final product and if you let them design it you cannot be proud of it as your work.
I’m actually quitting a job for a company where what the client says, goes. And it’s true, I felt like a cheap whore with a piece of work I didn’t want to finish. Not just once, but multiple times. It was getting to where the exception of the rule was a site I was proud of.
I’m now moving across country for a job with these guys doing front-end web development, and though I won’t be designing anymore, the knowledge I’ll gain in exchange will be well worth it.
Maybe eventually I can come back.
wtf happened to Flock!? :|
Well put Bryan.
I think this is an issue that every designer will have to face at some time or another, and knowing what you’re going to do beforehand will make the process a lot easier.
I like what Jeff and you said about making stuff that you’re proud of. Yes, design is often for the client, but we do it because we enjoy it, and of course we want to like what we make. So I think we feel almost violated when someone tries to change our work — it limits the freedom that we’re fighting for! (Huzzah!)
Design seems to be one of those things that others often feel comfortable dabbling in, whether they really know what they’re doing or not. This is fine, but I wouldn’t for example, try and fix a car myself if I was already sending it to a professional mechanic.
Anyways, I just want to make clear that I think designer-client interaction is important, and of course absolutely necessary. But there should be clear boundaries when it comes to responsibility. When these boundaries are respected, things will move along just fine.
Thanks for the thought provoking writeup, Bryan and Jeff.
This reminds me a lot of the ‘93 interview with Steve Jobs discussing Paul Rand’s work. Steve asked Paul to provide them some option. Paul responded with, “No. I will solve your problem for you and you will pay me. And you don’t have to use the solution. If you want options, go talk to other people…you can use it or not, but you will pay me.”
A great interview all around.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb8idEf-Iak
I also think Zeldman had some great points during his presentation on Selling Design at An Event Apart ‘07 in San Francisco. There is a certain amount of legwork that has to happen upfront before you can really engage with a client. You have to establish a certain amount of trust with the client and make sure that there are no unclear assumptions about the project.
Assuming you’ve done all this and a client still does what they did to Croft’s unfortunate colleage — after your through throwing your computer through the screen of course — you have to assess what it is that client is asking. We have to put aside our feelings and think about what the goal is that the client is trying to accomplish by sending you a grossly disfigured copy of your work.
Does he simply not understand or respect the process? Or is it something else? Are you not meeting some unknown criteria that the client hasn’t made apparent? Are they unhappy with something? Sometimes it really helps to go back to the basics and do a gutcheck.
I also think a lot of this is can be avoided if you walk a client through your work. The client obviously doesn’t know everything we designers implicitly understand. They don’t know why Garamond is the proper choice and Comic Sans is not. So whenever we send work to them we should always be sure to take the time to show them why we did what we did and how it is making them successful. Just because we’ve already signed a contract doesn’t mean we’re done selling.
Of course, sometimes the client is just the wrong client and you find out too late. It’s unfortunate but obviously it happens more than we’d like. All we can do is hold our heads high, be the better man and exit stage left as swiftly as possible.
I hope everything turns out well. I truly feel the pain of a fellow designer’s frustration. We got your back.
Wow… Great advice all around.
Back in October I signed on with a web design firm to become Creative Director and jump start a new graphic design arm. We’ve run into plenty of hurdles as to where boundaries are and the processes that each work well in. Client relationship and expectations are huge things (as have all been referenced above). As one of our programmers calls it, Socially Grooming the client.
I don’t have anything else to add really just that I wholeheartedly agree with everything posted above me.
Bravo Bryan (and Jeff, and BlueFlavor) — I’ve only had a few clients who have done this, but it’s a massive frustration each time for exactly the reasons Jeff stated. By acting this way, the client circumvents the process, and insults the knowledge and experience of the designers they have hired.
It all comes down to being clear with clients from the beginning about how the relationship works, and what to expect. After that, if they choose another path, it’s easier to remind them of what, exactly, they are paying you to do.
@Michael S: That Paul Rand reference is great, I have a few personal favorites from him.
I compare it to going to a michelin star restaurant, sending a dish back to the kitchen and telling the chef to cook it more, and add more salt to every dish that everyone orders…
A key moment passes here, when designers/developers lose ‘love’ for a project, the cost is huge for the client who just “doesn’t get it”…
Iain — I couldn’t agree more. When I lose the passion to work on something, the motivation goes down and with the motivation goes the creativity. It’s a domino effect that is ultimately deadly for both parties.
I’m sorry to ask, but, what happened to flock? Did it get prostituted as well? This stuff is great for designer student like me. Thanks for teaching me on real world experience. Appreciate it :)
I doubt there was any sort of malice or slight intended here, in this case I think it was just seen as the quickest way to get things done. Like many of you, I don’t agree with it and wish it hadn’t happened. However, we can’t blindly turn our backs on clients like this. Some education needs to be done here.
I’m just as appalled by the “fuck clients” mentality as I am when clients don’t respect what we do. (Not that I’m seeing that here, just sayin’.)
If a client does something like this, they should be educated as to why it’s not the best way to go about giving feedback and given the opportunity to get back on the same page with their designer. This is what we did, we’ll see how it goes.
As Jeff mentioned, we have a professional responsibility to address our concerns with the design changes that were made and give our client as much information, in as non-biased way as we can. Sure, this kind of thing hurts when it happens (and it happens to all of us) but we need to try not to take it personally and focus on the work itself.
Earning trust and respect is a challenge. I’ve seen, beyond a shadow of any doubt, that the clients that are willing to trust us and enable us to do our job are the most happy, most successful, etc. It’s a fact. However, getting to the point where they trust you can be hard, and you can’t rely on your skill or experience as a designer alone to get there.
These kinds of things are communication and trust issues mainly. We all know design by committee is bad. Consensus is for losers! And it breeds week, unfocused and lifeless designs. There’s a reason why the gallery sites are full of personal sites and portfolios. Design dictators FTW! To us this is clear. Among many, many other things we know about the design process and good design that our clients might not get.
To our clients…maybe these things are not so clear, and it’s our job, as much as it is to do quality work and make good design decisions, etc. to help them understand. Sure they should be called on things like this, but in a way they can learn from - and move past - it . So that we can give them every opportunity to get to the best possible design for them.
We need to have a backbone, yes, but we also need to avoid throwing difficult clients completely under the bus. The client in question here was mostly good, and my guess has some rationale for this.
We have a big problem in this industry when it comes to client relations, how we educate and deal with client work, etc. Some of the responsibility for changing that needs to fall on us. I think it’s great that we’re talking about it and getting it out there (although I’m not sure calling out clients by name helps much) and it’s my hope that we can leverage this kind of thing into a learning experience for designers as well as the clients/stakeholders they serve.
ps - we’ve been using the Paul Rand vs. Steve Jobs story around here too, to illustrate this problem. The easy argument is “well, Blue Flavor isn’t Paul Rand” and our comeback? “You’re not Apple.”
Interesting post and discussion. However, there seems to be a one-sidedness and overconfidence to some of it. Shouting amongst ourselves that we are designers and are always right is a pretty narrow-minded approach. Rand did some great work and is a bit of an iconoclast to our community, but his approach may not be the one for us all to adopt.
For the most part, clients simply don’t understand how design works and have no idea how to communicate with us. Unfortunately, they feel compelled to communicate because they are paying their hard-earned money and have been asked to provide feedback. The natural result of this is feedback that is at its least harmful useless and its most harmful insulting. Contrary to popular belief, clients are, for the most part, not stupid people. They are simply uninformed about design which is why we have jobs.
Feedback from clients is crucial. Yes, we have been asked to solve their problems, but that doesn’t mean we know what all of their problems and considerations are. They live and breathe their business and we only work with them for a brief period of time and then leave. They provide us with as much information as they know to offer up in the beginning but inevitably considerations are missed. Oftentimes they may not even know what to tell us until they see a comp or a layout and are able to articulate their needs within our frameworks. These moments bring clarity to them about your understanding and they can then leverage their knowledge to hone the design and provide insightful feedback.
Naturally this is not normally the case. Clients give obtuse feedback, they give meaningless feedback, or they give BAD feedback. But it is our job to educate them, to bring them along, to gently coach them on the type of feedback we need. It is not helpful for us to stomp off in righteous indignation, because then no problems have been solved and neither party is happy.
Yeah, there are some clients that need firing, but most clients are simply hapless when it comes to the design process. That’s why we exist, to help them. Sometimes they don’t know what’s good for them and we need to be firm and sometimes that firmness won’t be enough and an amicable parting of ways is in order. Good discussion overall but we do also need to eat some humble pie now and again.
All that said, opening up a photoshop document and tweaking it is some bullsh.
I do agree with both your points, Sean and Keith. As there is a lack of education with a lot of things in our industry, client relations does seem to rank close to the low end.
I was saying to Jen earlier that I had been meaning to write this post for a while because I hated seeing people being put into these situations, but what I did write fits perfectly with my personality and the direction I seem to be going in. I’m steadily moving out of the realm of doing client work because I cannot work for other people. I’m finding myself spitting in authority’s face more and more often these days.
I’ve asked myself so many times whether or not I’m throwing myself under the bus and through the glasses of a lot of people, I probably am. I’m cutting off a source of income that could probably get me out of some of the pickles I’ve put myself in. But I’ve gained such disdain for clients that my only reprieve is to work on things for myself and Sidebar and its gone so far that I’ve completely turned the Revyver bus around and am focusing on projects that make Jen and I excited to wake up in the morning.
But this is just one story from a guy who’s never worked for an agency or a team that’s focused on doing client work. My one-sided view cannot possibly understand what goes on at, say, Blue Flavor on a daily basis. Hell, if I worked there for a day or two, you’d probably either fire me or I’d quit—probably firing would come first.
I think this is where my business degree can be equated to a gun turned on myself—I lack the ability to be an effective designer for clients. So as I’ve said, I’m moving out of it altogether. There’s no reason the industry should have somebody with my personality trying to work with clients if the only thing that pleases me is working on my own stuff. Shooting myself in the foot? Obviously. But at least I’m not lying to myself anymore.
I’m sure this entry would have turned out a bit differently and less overconfident if my history was different, but alas, it is not.
Jonathan — I have a few stories about being “whored out.” But with Flock, yeah, no idea what happened there.
Thankfully, I haven’t had this happen to me - at least not to the extreme that some have mentioned. There was one project (that never ended up launching after I finished my part, funny enough) where the client was making insanely picky requests and it could have got to that point, but I nipped it soon enough.
Mind you, had I been doing design work at Graphics.net, I know full well I would have been pushing pixels on a regular basis.
Thanks for bringing this topic to the front lines, Bryan. I saw Jeff’s comments through-out the day and it really got me thinking. I’m glad the conversation has been opened up, and while I doubt many of those problem clients are going to catch wind of this, designers sure will. And they’ll know better how to handle the situation, should it arise.
Great discussion.
I’ve been put in a related situation — I’m the in-house designer/developer at a publishing company. It came time to redesign the site for one of our magazines, which included a wholly new listing service as part of the design. Little by little, the publisher of the magazine systematically removed elements of my design until every last bit of it was gone and had been replaced by his cluttered, no-white-space, garish, poorly-conceived design. Every time I told him he was wrong, he’d do one of two things:
Needless to say, my enthusiasm and passion for the project waned considerably. The design he shoved down my throat was a piss-poor rip of Restoration Hardware. (Aside: Looking at other sites for inspiration = good. Aping another site under any circumstances, especially when the business model is totally different = horribly bad.) My only solace was the fact that I still had the development of the listing service under my control — he was far too ignorant to be able to boss me around in that domain.
Nonetheless, I became a pixel prostitute.
I’m sort of having the last laugh right now, as traffic is a lot lower than expected and sales are down. All of the things that we’re now viewing as ways to fix this are the same things that I’ve been saying since the beginning, things that I based my design on. (“We” includes his boss. Ha ha.) Which leads me to another point — a lot of clients don’t seem to grasp the correlation between a solid site design and achieving your business goals.
The only reason the site is on my portfolio is because of the development work I did. Our customers do love the way search works. =D
Great discussion all around, and I’m not sure I have much to contribute. There have been many valuable points made that would benefit a lot of people in our line of work.
Having said that, after reading the initial post about clients mucking around in the supplied PSD (and while constantly trying to improve my own process and workflow), it raised a question.
What is the justification for providing the client a PSD as opposed to something uneditable (to an extent) such as a JPG?
I realize that doesn’t necessarily solve the problem, but in my mind, it would help limit the changes the client could make to the concept. At the very least, it would deter them and discourage it. I don’t know, maybe it really wouldn’t make any difference, but never having provided PSDs to my client, I’m not sure how it would affect the process.
Thoughts? Feel free to let me know if this is completely irrelevant or off-base, but it was something that popped into my head when reading through everything.
Oh, and thanks for the thought-provoking post! It’s stuff like this that makes us all better at what we do.
@bryan - I heartily respect your decision to move out of the client field and onto your own projects. If client work can’t make you happy then there isn’t much reason to do it. It takes a lot of guts to turn down that paycheck but some people can make it work for them. I have no doubt you are amongst them.
@sean and @keith - I completely agree that a large portion of our job as designers is to educate clients. We need to remove barriers, provide context and information for the client just as much as the end user. We don’t have to teach them every little trick. We just need to show them what it is that we’re doing that will make them successful. Make them love and feel as passionately about our work as we are.
Clients pay good money for our work. Their nervous about putting their business into someone else’s hands. They are paying a lot of money for something they don’t particular understand but know they need. Add into that the subjective nature of the work and the particular taste of any particular person. It’s no wonder clients want to second guess and micro-manage a project.
It’s on our shoulders to help them see past that and make them feel good about what we’re doing.
My sentiments exactly — well said Sir.
I’m impressed with everything I have read so far. I must say I felt identified with Bryan Veloso about not working with clients and such. I love to design all kinds of stuff for my personal use and joy, but when it comes to designing for other people I feel uncomfortable… At first I thought I was just being selfish, but reading Bryan made me think about it.
PS: Nice blog by the way. I came across it searching for CSS frameworks. I think I’m sticking this into my bookmarks. ^_^
With the exception of Keith and Sean, most of the other responses are really pretty uninformed or just full of b.s.
The client doesn’t “respect the process” was a classic point. I’m a potential client of every designer that has posted to this thread and I can tell you with the exception of the two I mentioned in the first paragraph, I’d not entertain hiring any of you. I’m sure you’d not entertain working with me as a client, and I’m perfectly fine with that.
What I get sick of is people (like Croft) who expect me to kiss their ass, realize what they do is hard and “respect” their work and communicate to them in a manner they want instead of what is easiest for me, the client. Unless I missed something in business school, it’s usually the other way around, except where there is an expectation of ass kissing, etc… (not something that should be included in business relationship, nor expected).
As I see it, and as Keith eloquently pointed out and was echoed by Sean to a fair degree, there needs to be some education on the part of the designer. If I don’t “respect the process” then you probably didn’t do a good job of informing me of how you operate. Which, should logically occur before I hire you.
However, this nonsense of being a pixel prostitute is just bullshit - period. We all work for money. If you don’t like the fact that some clients are just going to want what they want, they you have to either do their bidding or fire them. All this thumping your chest and talking big doesn’t make you look like anything other than a client hater. Rest assured, I’d not hire Croft. Doubtful I’d entertain hiring his employer either.
At the end of the day there needs to be a “fit”. Obviously, the client liked your work enough to inquire about your services. Obviously, you had no problem taking the clients money. So, it’s the in between is where shit went wrong and I’d blame the agency and not the client because it’s up to the agency/artist to explain/educate. If that didn’t happen, then you can bitch all you want but you should probably be looking in a mirror when doing so.
This happens all too often, sometimes I don’t even think about it anymore.
Reminds me of a phrase from the Design/Slash/Model video: Pixelfucking (verb)
I don’t mind when they use photoshop to communicate things, as designers it’s often easier to see changes and stuff visually. But the problem lies in them trying to fix it themselves (and sometimes coming up with really crappy solutions) instead of just telling you what their problem is.
@scott: You bring up a really good point. I did my first ever design work with some people for a small business and it wasn’t the best thing ever, but I never expected my client to do anything. It is my job as a designer to interpret what my client wants and if something happens, they have the right to tell me.
For all I care, my client can rape the design and make it look completely different. I had a problem with one of my clients and it’s not the kind of problem where you blame them. It’s a problem where you blame yourself, because you did not properly communicate with your client and the end result isn’t what either of you wanted.
For my design I did something I thought would be fit they’re needs, but because neither of us really discussed it, the end result was disastrous and they didn’t like it. I blamed myself as a designer.
The second time around, we got to talking about what they wanted. I invited them over to my house and they saw up front what I thought was good. They told me what they thought they would think was alright and I told them how I’d do it and if the way I was doing it was alright. They agreed.
You design for your client. They may want to make changes, accept those changes and apply your knowledge to how you should handle them.
I don’t think I’m above my client. I think we should be on the same level, not on one where the relationship between us is tense because one thinks they know more than the other.
I was searching for Bryan for so long and also trying to stare at CSS for almost 5 long days and nights to actually figure out ANYTHING when all I am is a photographer. We’re expected to know everything these days. I LOVE chaotic soul and I have spent 5 days not trying to “tweak” his perfect design but adjust the colors for my new web site being designed as a donation on my sons and my behalf because I am getting back to work after a 3 year medical nightmare that is still going. Why would it be an insult to want to change colors? yes his colors are GORGEOUS but so is the template. Is that so wrong? The new WP program did not have the easy change header. I couldn’t change to my page title etc… I am going mad trying to use it bcuz I love it SO much. I would hope that would be a compliment. So I live and beg for Bryan to please reach me if so inclined to help a girl in desperate need and in LOVE with your designs (and Jen has an awesome blog design!) and hoping that would not be a slap in the face but a nod of appreciation of your talents and a girl just trying to get back to work again who doesn’t know how to do this stuff. Anyone that can help please let me know.
I’m sorry to ask, but, what happened to flock? Did it get prostituted as well? This stuff is great for designer student like me. Thanks for teaching me on real world experience. Appreciate it :) Haha